What does "listening" mean within the context of the literary classroom? In this episode we join Director of the SpokenWeb Network and Professor at Concordia University - Jason Camlot - in conversation with SpokenWeb podcast supervising producer and Simon Fraser University PhD candidate - Stacey Copeland – to explore how sound studies is being taken up in the literary classroom.
Together we listen back to select "Cylinder Talk" sound production assignments created by Concordia graduate students, and unpack the experiences, ideas and discussions that the production and study of sound can incite across disciplines. A 3-minute audio project assigned to students in Jason’s most recent graduate seminar - Literary Listening as Cultural Technique - the Cylinder Talk draws on a history of early spoken sound recordings, inviting us into an embodied sonic engagement with literature studies.The episode features sound work by Alexandra Sweny, Sara Adams, Aubrey Grant and Andrew Whiteman.
SpokenWeb is a monthly podcast produced by the SpokenWeb team as part of distributing the audio collected from (and created using) Canadian Literary archival recordings found at universities across Canada. To find out more about Spokenweb visit: spokenweb.ca . If you love us, let us know! Rate us and leave a comment on Apple Podcasts or say hi on our social media @SpokenWebCanada.
Episode Producers:
Jason Camlot (SpokenWeb director) is Professor in the Department of English and Research Chair in Literature and Sound Studies at Concordia University in Montreal. His critical works include Phonopoetics (Stanford 2019), Style and the Nineteenth-Century British Critic (2008), and the co-edited collections, CanLit Across Media (2019) and Language Acts (2007). He is also the author of four collections of poetry, Attention All Typewriters, The Animal Library, The Debaucher, and What the World Said.
Stacey Copeland is a media producer and Communication Ph.D. candidate at Simon Fraser University in Vancouver, Canada. She received her MA from the Ryerson York joint Communication and Culture program and a BA in Media Production from Ryerson University. She is currently the podcast project manager for The Spokenweb Podcast and the supervising producer of Amplify Podcast Network. website: http://staceycopeland.com/
Cylinder Talks Featured:
References:
Additional Sound Clips:
00:00:03
SpokenWeb Podcast Theme Music:
[Instrumental Overlapped with High-Pitched Voice Begins] Can you hear me? I don't know how much projection to do here.
00:00:18
Hannah McGregor:
What does literature sound like? What stories will we hear if we listen to the archive? Welcome to the SpokenWeb Podcast: stories about how literature sounds. [Instrumental Overlapped with High-Pitched Voice Ends]
00:00:34
Hannah McGregor:
My name is Hannah McGregor, and each month I'll be bringing you different stories of Canadian literary history and our contemporary responses to it created by scholars, poets, students, and artists from across Canada. On the SpokenWeb Podcast, we talk a lot about different ways that sound and literature collide, whether that collision takes place in the SpokenWeb archives or through research symposiums, poetry, readings, and literary events. While past episodes have brought us into the university setting through interviews with professors and explorations of student work in the SpokenWeb network, we have yet to really explore how sound and literature collide in the classroom. Whether that's high school, university, or elsewhere, what are the different ways that sound is being taken up as a learning tool in the literary community? We could even say we're in a classroom of sorts together [Sound Effect: Classroom Chatter] here and now listening and learning in dialogue through the SpokenWeb Podcast.
00:01:33
Hannah McGregor:
[Sound Effect: Bell Ringing] And it sounds like class is about to begin. In this episode, we join director of the SpokenWeb network and professor at Concordia university, Jason Camlot in conversation with SpokenWeb Podcast supervising producer, and Simon Fraser University PhD candidate, Stacey Copeland in exploring sound and listening in the literary classroom. Together, we'll listen back to select "cylinder talks" created by Concordia graduate students and unpack the experiences, ideas, and discussions sparked by the production and study of sound across disciplines. A three-minute audio project assigned to students in Jason's graduate course, Literary Listening as Cultural Technique, the cylinder talk draws on a rich history of early spoken sound recordings, inviting us into an embodied sonic engagement with the study of literature. Here are Stacey Copeland and Jason Camlot with Cylinder Talks: Pedagogy in Literary Sound Studies. [Theme Music].
00:02:31
Jason Camlot:
Hey Stacey.
00:02:31
Stacey Copeland:
Hello. How are you?
00:02:36
Jason Camlot:
Good. Sorry about that. I was in the wrong room.
00:02:40
Stacey Copeland:
I mean, that's what happens when we have probably five or six different links we've used now for the podcast.
00:02:47
Jason Camlot:
Exactly.
00:02:47
Stacey Copeland:
All right, you want to get started? [Begin Music: Tonal Sounds]
00:02:49
Jason Camlot:
Let's go for it.
00:02:56
Stacey Copeland:
Podcast project manager, Stacey Copeland here. I'm joined In our podcast classroom of sorts, AKA Zoom video room, by Jason Camlot, director of the SpokenWeb research network, and likely a familiar voice if you listen to season one of the podcast. So being a student, myself, teacher, a sound scholar, I'm quite interested in the different ways that audio media production is being taken up as a learning tool across different disciplines. Whether that's a project like SpokenWeb, or I think might be the case with the audio we'll be listening to today, audio assignments that take students out of the traditional essay writing headspace and into a different mode of engaging with ideas in the classroom. But rather than me guessing at the inner workings of your graduate course, Jason, you've brought a selection of student assignments for us to listen to together. Why don't you tell us a bit more about the course, the assignments, and what we'll be hearing today? [End Music: Tonal Sounds]
00:03:56
Jason Camlot:
Okay. Well thanks Stacy. Very much. I'm entering our SpokenWeb Zoom classroom, as you describe it, both as a student and as someone who just taught a grad seminar called (Literary) Listening as Cultural Technique. I should say, I've been trying to teach with sound in my literature courses for about a decade now with varying degrees of success. I think the first few times that I taught sound recordings of literary performances in a classroom, I just played them and then expected something to happen and nothing happened because I found that in the students, and myself as well, we weren't equipped to actually engage critically with those kinds of materials. And so. I called this course, (Literary) Listening, and literary is in parentheses. So it's a very typographical title I suppose. Literary is really cordoned off from listening as cultural technique.
00:04:49
Jason Camlot:
And most of the seminar we're reading theories of listening from disciplines that are not literary. As far as the assignments went, assignment for the entire seminar were really leading towards a final paper. And then there was this assignment that we're talking about, which I called it the cylinder talk, right. And I've done this before. And the cylinder talk, the title, really comes from my own research fairly extensively in early spoken sound recordings and thinking about the implications of media formats in relation to what I would identify as literary forms. Right. So how did the constraints of a particular format inform what one can do in terms of delivering a story or a poem or an argument of some kind. Because cylinders, back in the day, in the acoustic period of sound recordings, sort of pre 1920 and usually much earlier than that —so from the 1890s on —generally held between two and four minutes of sound. The cylinder represents a time constraint as a result of preservation surface. So it's using a material artifact on which sound was first recorded as a temporal constraint to begin with for an assignment. For the courses where I was doing these cylinder talks, they knew what a cylinder was and understood what the implications were because we'd studied them. So we'd listened to cylinder recordings, right. We'd studied late Victorian, early sound recordings where full Victorian novels were compressed into the timeframe of a three-minute cylinder. How do you deliver a David Copperfield in three minutes?
00:06:25
Audio Recording, “David Copperfield” performed by William Sterling Battis :
My dear Copperfield, come in. Come in! I —
00:06:28
Jason Camlot:
Early cylinder remediations of fiction mainly focused on either character sketches— that's one way in which you compress a 400 page novel into three minutes — or they would focus on key transformation scenes. It's like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde —
00:06:47
Audio Recording, “The Transformation Scene From Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.” Performed by Len Spencer
The fiend is coming!Yes, aye, is here! [laughter]
00:06:57
Jason Camlot:
— Or the mesmerism scene from George Du Maurier’s novel Trilby where Svengali is mesmerizing Trilby —
00:07:01
Audio Recording, “Svengali Mesmerizes Trilby” performed by Herbert Beerbohm Tree
And you shall see nothing ,hear nothing, thinking nothing, but Svengali, Svengali, Svengali...
00:07:14
Jason Camlot:
—or in a Christmas Carol when Ebeneezer Scrooge is transformed from a squeegee Scrooge into a benevolent generous person —
00:07:28
Audio Recording, “A Christmas Carol in Prose” performed by Bransby Williams:
God sent dreams to save me from meself. May God in this merry Christmastime be thanked for the reformation that you now begin with Ebeneezer Scrooge.
00:07:42
Jason Camlot:
And so the fiction cylinder, that's the way they got around the question of constraint and compression. In this seminar, I wanted to have the students engage in a sort of, not a super demanding way, but just to have the experience of working with the digital audio workstation. Even if it means just having sort of two tracks and having to edit, select, engage with digitized sound, to think about both the media, through which we were encountering all of the sounds in the course, and I also wanted them to experience the kind of intensity that audio editing entails. Having to engage in that activity, I felt, represents a way of thinking about methodology. So that it's sort of a form of listening that to some extent estranges you from the listening, because you may not know how to use the tools that well, so it's not so natural to use them.
00:08:32
Jason Camlot:
It's a nice extension of the longer sort of theoretical discussions we've been having throughout the semester, about listening as a kind of audile technique or as a cultural technique. So it required them to produce a sound work. So that was sort of one of the goals. And the other constraints, apart from time alone, was they had to present a main idea, argument, or concept that they were going explore in the paper that they were writing. And they had to integrate at least one sound from the area that they were exploring. And I did imagine this not only as a kind of production oriented assignment, but I knew we were going to have a listening session, listening party of sorts in our very last class where everyone will get to hear everyone else's cylinder talks, but also engage in responding to what they heard.
00:09:20
Stacey Copeland:
You've brought in four talks from the course for us to listen to today, which will give everyone a bit more of a sense of what the students ended up with after engaging in this cylinder talkformat. We're going to play the full talk, which of course is only three minutes. It's not too long for each one. And then we've chosen a bit of discussion to illustrate some of the critical thought that came after that listening experience together.
00:09:46
Jason Camlot:
Yeah. As we were listening, of course we were on Zoom, so a bunch of squares showing everyone's faces, everyone's video is on. And that was one of the most enjoyable and interesting elements of the several hours that we spent listening together was just watching everyone's reactions. This was the first time that everyone got to share something they'd made in this way. And so that was, I think, a really special aspect of this last listening session that we did together. So, which is the first one we're going to listen to?
00:10:14
Stacey Copeland:
I think the first one I have queued up is Alexandra's talk.
00:10:18
Jason Camlot:
So Alexandra Sweny was thinking about and reading about environmental soundscape production. I think Alexandra — who is really working on Canadian poetry so this is not necessarily in her wheelhouse — really just became excited about some of the articles that were about environmental sound. And she pursued that topic.
00:10:38
Stacey Copeland:
Alexandra's talk "Ethics of Field Recording in Irv Teibel's, Environments Series".
00:10:44
Jason Camlot:
Yes.
00:10:44
Stacey Copeland:
So, let's take a listen.
00:10:47
Audio Recording, Alexandra Sweny’s Cylinder Talk:
[Sound Clip: Synthetic White Noise] White noise to me has always sounded like falling snow. When I was little waking up after VHS always felt like falling asleep and waking up in the middle of a snow storm. I picture static like a blizzard that surrounds and disorients you. Every sound we hear it exists on a spectrum analogous to colours. White noise, like snowfall, has a wide frequency spectrum and clear tones, a narrow one. According to bio acoustician Bernie Krauss, in a healthy ecosystem in a healthy soundscape, the sound spectrum is full with living creatures, filling every frequency band. In altered and recently developed landscapes, such as clear cut forests or logging paths, the sound spectrum has notable gaps. [Sound Clip: Synthetic White Noise] White noise helps you forget about all that. Snowfall is an ambient sound and it blankets what it covers audibly just as it does visually. Snow absorbs noise and it isolates and insulates. I use recordings of snowfall to study, read, and write. In a library, snowfall through my headphones would dull the sounds of rattling coffee cups and scraping chairs. It began when I encountered Irv Teibel's Environment Series, a set of set of 11 long playing records created in the '60s and '70s. “Alpine Blizzard” is the title of the A-side on the last record. I could imagine myself isolated as if on top of a mountain, piling text on a page while the snow piled high around me. But this isn't how the sounds were recorded. Rather than setting the top a prime peak and letting the natural world do the work, colleagues of Teibel recall how he viewed nature as an obstacle to be tackled, wrestled, and refined.
00:12:51
Audio Recording, Alexndra Sweny’s Cylinder Talk:
Rather than any old beach sound, for instance, he wanted the perfect beach sound. A track he eventually mixed with samples across 12 different locations, which were ultimately processed using localizers and equalizers. The sounds broken down into new recombinations and new synthetic waves to cover this places. The result was his first track “Environments 1: Psychologically Ultimate Seashore.” In my essay, I want to contend with the ethics of Teibel's Environments series, which are among the first and most contentious field recording compositions to be sold in mainstream markets. I ask what are the risks of psychologically ultimate sounded field recordings, which are designed to soothe and calm, but which distance us from the psychologically and acoustically disruptive noises of anthropocentric contact and occupation? How do these ambient and curated soundscapes made for the human, but without the human, frame our relationship to the landscape, both imaginary and real? What are we to make of soundscapes that allow us to forget our place in the world, rather than which remind us of it? [Sound Clip: White Noise].
00:13:56
Audio Recording, Seminar: Jason Camlot:
Great job, Alexandra.
00:14:10
Audio Recording, Seminar: Alexandra Sweny:
Thank you.
00:14:10
Audio Recording, Seminar: Jason Camlot:
Any first thoughts for us on it?
00:14:14
Audio Recording, Seminar: Alexandra Sweny:
Yeah, I guess I got on thinking about it from one of the additional readings on the bibliography of listening that talked about other field and sound recordings that have come up in the past years and just how the composer stance to the original recordings have changed. I think the article was talking about Derek Charke's “Falling from Cloudless Skies”, which recorded the sounds of glaciers cleaving and melting. [Sound Effect: Glacier Break] And then songs of the humpback whale also mentioned that article. So I was just thinking about how field recordings have changed to reflect the attitudes that we're having towards the natural world since the '60s.
00:14:47
Audio Recording, Seminar: Jason Camlot:
Michael.
00:14:47
Audio Recording, Seminar: Michael Menezes
I thought that the thing was, in some ways, very objectively beautiful because you have this white noise, and then the idea is that all of these —not only these ideas that you're talking about are like being evoked out of the white noise, but you also have this really — I guess this is what meditation tips in general do is that they have white noise and then they have people evoking landscapes out of them that you're supposed to visualize. But here you actually told us that they were coming out of the white noise itself, which is really interesting. It literalized the trick that I think that those, that meditation tapes usually used.
00:15:18
Jason Camlot:
That was Michael Menezes.
00:15:19
Audio Recording, Seminar: Alexandra Sweny:
Thank you. Yeah. Meditation tapes, just even as a whole, would be a really good example of this that are just designed to put you to sleep and really zone out. I've listened to those also in the past.
00:15:27
Audio Recording, Seminar: Jason Camlot:
Andrew Whiteman
00:15:29
Audio Recording, Seminar: Andrew Whiteman
On that, what I was thinking, what you were doing is you have sound behind you [Sound Clip: White Noise] and then it fades out and then you bring the sound back again [Sound Clip: White Noise]. And I thought you were tricking it. I thought you were playing us something from the LP series you were talking about. And then I thought you were fading on actual white noise because I find a lot of sort of new laptop based composers or are trying to make fake natural sounds using the sounds that are only available inside the digital audio workstation playing with the nature-culture thing there.
00:16:00
Audio Recording, Seminar: Alexandra Sweny:
Yeah. And no, that was that was just a recording on my fire escape with the bells that came in right at the end. And I figured I'd put them in because those are very much, they take me out of whatever I'm doing and remind me like exactly what time it is and where I am.
00:16:13
Audio Recording, Seminar: Jason Camlot:
Yeah. Just to build on everything that everyone's been saying, I thought it was a wonderful example of a kind of anti-meditation tape or a meditation tape that makes you reflect on all the ethical issues surrounding what meditation tapes are trying to do perhaps. But also I thought rhetorically the way you brought us into the description of what a natural soundscape and it's sort of diverse frequency spectrum would normally entail going to the silence that memetically performs that. And then when you say white noise makes us forget about all that, rhetorically that whole sequence was really, really effective and powerful because you brought us into like, "Oh, okay, we're going to hear this sound over and over again, but we're not going to hear it the same way" because you're teaching us how to hear it differently. And sort of the implications of what we're hearing."
00:17:01
Audio Recording, Seminar: Michael Menezes
The images you actually evoke are not — you start by saying that there are these beautiful nature landscapes but then the white noise is something that is blocking out global catastrophe, like glacier slipping off of mountains. And, I don't know, the songs of humpback whales was also a very good image.
00:17:18
Stacey Copeland:
So, I never thought I would hear a student referencing Bernie Krause in a literature course, but there we go. So what is it like listening back to this discussion for you, Jason?
00:17:31
Jason Camlot:
It brought me right back into the moment of sort of the excitement immediately after hearing the piece for the first time. I really did think that Alexandra's cylinder — more than others —had a kind of almost ASMR quality to it. Really it was very tactile and also the way she delivered her text was really interesting because she allowed for a lot of space in between sentences. It almost sounded like a poem. So I think I was hearing a little bit more the form of the piece even more than I had the first time. Her selection of sounds really did get to the core of some of the ethical issues that she was interested in exploring.
00:18:08
Stacey Copeland:
Yeah. I mean, before the discussion came in, my mind was already churning all around all the possibilities of what you might've been listening to in the course because that sort of close recording, that very ASMR, tactile quality that the white noise track has in Alexandra's piece really reminded me of Hildegard Westerkamp's work—
00:18:28
Audio Recording, “Kits Beach Soundwalk” Hildegard Westerkamp:
These are the tiny, the intimate voices of nature. Of bodies, of dreams, of the imagination.
00:18:38
Stacey Copeland:
— particularly her Kits Beach piece, which does also have a very poetic flow in the vocal performance. And then the very close recording and very tactile sensation of listening to the barnacles on Kits Beach in Vancouver.
00:18:54
Audio Recording, “Kits Beach Soundwalk” Hildegard Westerkamp:
You're still hearing the barnacle sounds. And already they're changing.
00:18:59
Stacey Copeland:
And this recording brought me right back there. So then I was so surprised to hear in the discussion that Alexandra just recorded this on her fire escape. And then also the bells, because then I was thinking, well, if you were listening to R. Murray Schafer, maybe the bells were intentional and kind of an ode to 1970s acoustic ecology, but no, it was just her everyday experience.
00:19:22
Jason Camlot:
There was a longer discussion about the bells after, cause we talked about bells an awful lot in our seminar from Schafer, but also because one of the earliest sort of documentary recordings was of Big Ben tolling [Audio Recording: “Big Ben clock tower of Westminster”] in London in 1890 so, we talked about what, what that meant, what it means to record a bell, what a bell is, especially a publicly heard bell as a means of something that many people in an area can hear, how the bell measures time, et cetera. So yeah, we thought about bells a lot and yet there they areright, just in her neighborhood and she integrated them. We really didn't do much listening to soundscape recordings in the seminar. The majority of the recordings we listened to were still voice-based in one way or another, even though they may have been quite experimental, but that was all Alexandra following her interest and discovering sounds.
00:20:21
Stacey Copeland:
I love this first example, because it really illustrates some of the ways that thinking through sound studies, regardless of whether you've listened to specific acoustic ecologists or sound recordist, like Hildegard Westerkamp and thinking about the World Soundscape Project, and you had a bit of introduction in the course for students around R. Murray Schafer, and round soundscape and those ideas.
00:20:43
R. Murray Schafer from “Listen” (NFB 2009):
We are the composers of this huge miraculous composition that's going on around us and we can improve it or we can destroy it. We can add more noises or we can add more beautiful sounds. That's all up to us.
00:20:58
Stacey Copeland:
Think about how reading those ideas can then lead to very similar sonic aesthetics in this particular cylinder talk. It'd be interesting to see how that translates across different disciplines as well.
00:21:10
Jason Camlot:
Yeah, I think that's such a great question. And coming from literature, one of the challenges is to move away from the semantic signal when you're listening to voice recordings. Alexandra's interest in moving away from sounds with semantic meaning was a fulfillment of what we were often trying, but failing to do in listening to some of the literary recordings. Another thing that I think I heard in the responses to Alexandra's was a real interest in trying to identify what Michel Chion would call "causal listening". I thought you were making the sounds do this, but actually it turned out to be that. And that also is an ongoing sort of frame for our course — thinking about what it means to identify sound as objects or with particular sources.
00:21:56
Stacey Copeland:
We kind of see some similar overlaps in these ideas of sonic environment and our relationship to the soundscape and the way that these kind of core ideas that come out of cultural sound studies have been taken up by your students through this literature course. And we hear these themes come up again in the next Cylinder Talk that you've chosen for us.
00:22:18
Jason Camlot:
Okay. So this is Sara Adams. This is probably in some ways the most challenging of the projects, because most of the sounds that she wants to write about can never be heard again. Her world is set in the 1840s in Victorian London. Sara is a PhD student and she's a 19th century scholar. I'm a Victorianist first and foremost, I suppose, still. And so she's come to work on Henry Mayhew, who was journalist, also an early ethnographer, oral historian, data collector about, I guess, marginal peoples living in urban environments in the 19th century. His best-known work is called London Labour and the London Poor, which is a remarkable, extensive, and expansive document of interviews with people who are living and working in London, but not necessarily in recognized jobs or positions. So many of them are doing things, doing the work in the city that is rendered invisible to anyone above the lower middle classes. The street sweepers, the garbage collectors, people who are selling wares in the streets. A very famous figure for Mayhew who that gets anthologized for some reason, the watercress girl is the one that that gets repeated and anthologized a lot.
00:23:31
Jason Camlot:
Mayhew —half of his work, or more than half of his work are actual transcriptions of interviews that he held. He writes them in the voices of the people he interviewed. We don't know how accurate and there's been a lot of sort of critique of sort of him as a mediator of these voices. So those are sounds that Sara was very interested in exploring as sounds. So actually I don't think she had thought of them as sounds previously that informed her new investigation for her, I think, and for me, cause I hadn't thought about Mayhew this way, either. Thinking about where different people who make certain sounds as a result of the labour they pursue, whether they're perceived as noise or as a kind of meaningful signal in certain ways.
00:24:13
Stacey Copeland:
Great. Let's take a listen.
00:24:14
Audio Recording, Sara Adam’s Cylinder Talk:
Over the course of the 19th century, Victorian London experienced an unprecedented growth in population size. Consequently Britain's largest city was not only choked with dirt and dust, but it was also overwhelmingly "alive with sound." [Sound Clips: Victorian Street] In the city street markets, butchers, fishmongers and other street sellers shouted over each other, trying to catch the attention of passers by. The raucous symphony of London streets was also filled with bamboo flute players, Oregon grinders, and other street musicians, as well as the clomping of horses hooves, the clattering of carriages and carts, and the distant roar of the new railway. It was truly an "age of osculation" as John Picker argues, full of careful and close listening to a noisy and rapidly changing modern world. While some 19th century writers and intellectuals try to escape from the piercing sounds of the city streets, the journalist Henry Mayhew embraced them, diving headfirst into London's East End and interviewing street vendors and other impoverished street folk in order to compile an encyclopedic archive entitled: London Labour and the London Poor first published in 1851. London Labour was ultimately an unfinished multi-volume work that recorded the everyday living and working conditions of London's marginalized, urban poor. Mayhew was explicitly interested in reproducing in print form the real and "unvarnished" voices of London street folk "from the lips of the people themselves." By deploying carefully detailed and mimetic description while also striving to transcribe his subjects interview answers verbatim, Mayhew attempted to create a literary work that faithfully sounded and re-sounded like a phonograph. Not only did Mayhew seek to bear witness to and preserve the voices of a rapidly disappearing population, but his project also simultaneously pushed the boundaries of what print could do. In my paper, I will explore how Mayhew uses sound to immerse his middle-class audience in the urban underworld of outcast London. How does Mayhew's use of sound in the text create the conditions of possibility for hearing? What kind of ear witnessing does Mayhew perform in the text and what novel aesthetic ethical or political realities does this osculate of work make possible? I find it fascinating that Mayhew's text reverberates, not only with the sights of the city, but also equally with it's sounds, creating an immersive reading experience that grounds its reader firmly in a stable spatial and temporal setting. Mayhew's text is also striking because it not only records the everyday noises of the city's quotidian hustle and bustle, but it also trains its ear and by extension it's reader's ear on individuals and their personal stories of loss, struggle, and small moments of joy. In this way, Mayhew conditions his readers to differentiate sound from noise, listening from hearing, a sonic and sympathetic movement with profound ethical and political possibilities.
00:27:56
Audio Recording, Seminar: Sara Adams:
Thanks guys. I guess I'm always interested in like, what does it mean to listen? What does it mean to hear? What conditions specifically political arise out of certain kinds of listening? And also what do they not make possible or what does incomplete listening or partial or warped? I mean, it's always mediated through all sorts of things. And I think in those clips there's so many different levels of my mediation and like interpretation, but then also Mayhew trying to get towards like an authentic kind of unvarnished, untouched, idea of someone's sound and someone's story, but we just know that's not possible. Right. We know that that mediation fundamentally does distort and that there are implications for that.
00:28:39
Audio Recording, Seminar: Aubrey Grant
I'm not too familiar with Henry Mayhew —
00:28:42
Jason Camlot:
Aubrey Grant.
00:28:42
Audio Recording, Seminar: Aubrey Grant
—but I know that within that context of the different social reformers at that period, there was a lot of talk of questions of sanitation and cleanliness, of the dangers that the poor brought onto society in terms of illness, in terms of also smells as well and all this stuff. But thinking about in terms of noise — I was wondering there was like a connection between a kind of discourse, the sanitation and a discourse of noise.
00:29:10
Audio Recording, Seminar: Sara Adams:
Yeah. I guess for both, I was sort of connecting them and actually I've done a lot of work on waste and sanitation during this period. So that's why I was sort of like, "Oh, I never thought of the sonic qualities." I've thought of like material pollution in the terms of like dirt and dust and human waste, decaying weight matter, whatever, but not in terms of noise pollution. A lot of those people and places have been extinguished and have been made obsolete by industry and by industrial processes and by modernity. And that's actually a really big part of Mayhew's project was actually to record these people's voices, and their everyday lives and the details about their mundane to-ings and fro-ings because they all like disappeared basically. Slowly. Like police were more —there's more police around so there was more policing of like the city and making people move around more and not letting them just sell wherever. There were more laws about street music and who could play where. We have that today still with like red zoning people who are on the sides, on the streets, like asking for money, policing the poor and all sorts of ways,
00:30:10
Audio Recording, Seminar: Jason Camlot:
Is sound in any of his [statistical] tables? I don't recall.
00:30:13
Audio Recording, Seminar: Sara Adams:
Yeah. So they're not. The closest would be like, he talks about how many carriages are on the road, how many more carriages there are now than there were before. Like for me it feels like he's kind of putting that osculation, like that idea of like the stethoscope, he sort of applying it to the body politic or at least a very small part of it, of the urban poor in London taking its heartbeat.
00:30:35
Audio Recording, Seminar: Jason Camlot:
I just called up cause you were talking about it sort of one of my favorite methods of categorization that Mayhew uses of the population. Right. And it could be interesting to think about what sounds did these four sectors of the population create or do they tend to create right. He calls them the enrichers, the auxiliaries, the benefactors and the servitors. And the thing about Mayhew that's so cool, right, is that it's very leveling these categories it's based on your instrumental contribution rather than your social status. Servitors are the actors, the servants, all of the London poor that you're talking about, like the street sweepers and scavengers — but the queen is considered a servitor as well. And members of parliament. To think about songs sonic emanations, according to some of these attempts at categorizing populations and the spaces they use, obviously, cause space and going back to Aubery's point thinking maybe sound is more important to me. I'd really —I'm really excited to look back and think about the status of sound in relation to the other senses in Mayhew.
00:31:33
Stacey Copeland:
That's great. Listening back to this discussion, you can really hear how excited you are about this topic.
00:31:41
Jason Camlot:
Yeah. Well it reintroduced Mayhew to me in a whole new way. So I was super excited about what —where Sara was going with her work and there's been some excellent sort of sound studies oriented work in Victorian studies. She mentioned John Picker and John Picker's book, Victorian Soundscapes does a lot of excellent sort of analysis of noise pollution in the Victorian period and how it relates to identity formation and different sort of [...], and especially the bourgeois subject. But I don't think he talks about Mayhew — and I really hadn't thought about Mayhew. And in so many ways it's such an obvious text to think about from a sonic perspective.
00:32:14
Stacey Copeland:
Yeah. And I mean, in this discussion, I mean, this is just like a little slice of the very in-depth discussion that the students were having after listening to Sara's cylinder talk around ideas of noise and the politics of what is defined as noise versus sound, how that relates to the Victorian era, but then also talking about contemporary politics of noise and sound and policing. And it was such a rich conversation to hear coming out of this application of sound studies ideas to say, Henry Mayhew in this particular era. And I was also curious — we hear this politics of noise come up from scholars like Jennifer Stover when we're thinking about the sonic colour line and the racialized ways that sound is defined as noise in relation to identity. And so it should be —I would think, I mean, maybe I'm just so nerdy that I'm excited about it— quite fascinating to see how these kinds of identity politics unfold in Henry Mayhew's discussions of sounds and noise in this particular era.
00:33:15
Jason Camlot:
Yeah, you're exactly right in your instincts about sort of where some of this may have come from. We talked about Stover, we read Sun Eidsheim's work The Race of Sound.. And that was a very important book I think for students in the seminar as was Dylan Robinson's Hungry Listening, which was amazing. The very first thing it does is take down R. Murray Schafer on this question of noise, right. Basically his account of Inuit throat singing as kind of awful noise, right. And so the politics of what is called noise and what isn't called noise in relation to identity formations and identifications was much discussed throughout the seminar. And I think that Sara was sort of bringing some of that back to the Victorian works that she's really interested in writing about.
00:34:02
Stacey Copeland:
We kind of got on the topic of bells earlier. And this next cylinder talk that you've brought in for us brings up to the idea of bells yet again.
00:34:11
Jason Camlot:
Yeah. So this is a cylinder talk by Aubrey Grant on Edgar Allen Poe's poem, "The Bells." There is actually a very recent article in PMLA, which is sort of like one of the major literature journals of the modern language association, on this poem that I assigned for the course, it was published just last year, 2020. So really very recent by Peter Miller called "Prosody Media and the Poetry of Edgar Allen Poe." Aubrey really dove into readings around prosody, which was sort of a new area to him. So thinking about literary prosody, so the sound in the printed word, right. That's one way to describe what prosody is —these are things you learn in high school assonance and consonance and rhyme, right. Those are ways of thinking about how sound functions in poetry off the page, but the combination of our course and his discovery of prosody and his already quite mature thinking around signification and theories of language resulted in kind of a mind blowing reading of this poem, using language and signification techniques to communicate sound in ways that he argues are quite unique to Poe.
00:35:21
Stacey Copeland:
So here is Aubrey's talk titled "Poe's Impossible Sound."
00:35:28
Audio Recording: Aubrey Grant’s Cylinder Talk:
[Begin/Alvin Lucier, “I am sitting in a room” underplay] In a short story from 1919, Rilke describes his mysterious fascination with a skull he has brought home from an anatomy lesson. Where once it contained within its narrow confines, a brain and an unbounded subconsciousness, it now appeared to him as a hollow structure, an empty vessel. One evening as he passed it flickering in candlelight, he was struck by the realization that he had seen the coronal suture once before. That jagged zigzag pattern of connective fibers that joins the front of the skull to the back was the very same pattern he had seen inscribed on an equally hollow wax cylinder. When, as a child, he had listened to his own voice in all its sonic ephemerality separated from his body for the very first time. What kind of sound would issue from the skull, Rilke wondered, if a phonograph needle were to trace the contours of the coronal suture? What primal sound would be produced if, rather than simply tracing the graphic inscription of a sound that already existed, the phonograph could play the as yet unheard lines, grooves, cuts, and graphemes of nature itself? Setting aside speculation of whether the sound would be noise or music, Rilke's perspective is decisive. It is only by means of mechanisms, machines, and techniques that it becomes possible to listen, to really listen to the unsounded sounds of the real. More broadly, the phonograph itself and its cylinder of which this talk is a simulation, points to the fact that listening has always been a technique for intervening in the real. In this way, the phonograph is merely the technological exteriorization of a practice of signal processing with its own history. A history which revolves around the question of how we listen. That is, of the techniques we use to filter sounds out of noise, to produce something that we can hear. In my essay, I argue that Edgar Allen Poe's "The Bells'' articulates a transformation in listening techniques marked by a shift from a regime of signs to a regime of signal processing. Taking Friedrich Kittler's media technical a priori as a starting point, I argue that Poe's poem is a kind of phonograph avant la lettre, which is both invested in print culture and sonically undermines it. Arguing along lines set out by Eliza Richards, Peter Miller, and Jerome McGann, I will begin by situating Poe's attention to the mechanics of prosody within 19th century print culture and industrial reproduction. In this reading Poe's poems are prosodic machines that not only produce an infinite variety of performances, but are themselves technologically reproducible. In a manner analogous to Benyamine's analysis of cinema it is the very reproducibility of the poetic machine that constructs the cultural modalities of listening in the mid 19th century. However, while holding onto this theory and historical context, I believe that a close reading of "The Bells" will reveal Poe's attention to a kind of listening that exceeds the boundaries set by written signs and human voices. My reading will center around the orally evocative deployment of onomatopoeia in the poem. Although Poe's use onomatopoeia to emphasize themes and enhance the musicality of performance has been well-documented, what has escaped notice is the fact that the word bells is not itself onomatopoeic. Rather, it is only through his use of repetition that it becomes so. Like a real bells percussive clapper, which makes its hollow interior ring and resound, the repetition of this mechanical supplement empties the word of signification while retaining its acoustic qualities. What occurs, I argue, is that the graphic inscription becomes an empty vessel. Like Rilke's skull which channels uncoated frequencies of a primal sound concealed in the materiality of the letter. In other words, the noise of the real and impossible inhuman sound that the signifier normally articulates into signs becomes audible for the first time in Poe's poem. From sign to signal, this sourceless acousmatic sound may well be the music of the printed words own disillusion into the noise of the coming phonographic age.[End:Alvin Lucier, “I am sitting in a room”underplayed]
00:39:57
Audio Recording, Seminar: Jason Camlot
Yeah. Talk about repetition.
00:40:03
Audio Recording, Seminar: Aubrey Grant:
Yes, exactly. Exactly. So just a couple of things. Yeah. The sound that I used in the back, I think we're all familiar with that. We listened to it actually at the beginning of the course, it's the ending segment of Alvin Lucier's I Am Sitting in a Room. The reason that I wanted to use that segment was because I had intended to actually base part of my thing on that. Cause what I was looking at was like, what is the sound that is sort of like hidden in the voice and how is it revealed or made present through this kind of structure of like repetitive feedback looping and how it dissolves articulation into pure noise.
00:40:35
Audio Recording, Seminar: Jason Camlot
Yeah. Michael.
00:40:35
Audio Recording, Michael Menezes:
I just thought that your cylinder was like very symbolically lovely. I think that you set up — I mean obviously the background noise thing, it felt like someone turning a large wheel of music in some ways when the wheel makes one revolution of the sound, of the piston hits the thing. And the piston, obviously from your presentation, the piston reminds me of like the mechanical aspect of the bell. And the sound reminds me of the individual trying to like capture this beautiful sonorous noise, just having them connected directly in one machine with no like feeling of humanity in between. And only the skull was like a, was a great image.
00:41:12
Audio Recording, Seminar: Aubrey Grant:
I love the Gothic media theory stuff. I mean, this stuff is great. Ultimately, Michael that's sort of what I was aiming at. I wasn't thinking of it as much as a piston, although that works too. Thinking about the way in which like a record [Sound Recording: Surface Crackling] as it turns, or a cylinder, as it turns is a kind of cyclical repetition. And that repetition doesn't have to just like a bell ringer, like a hammer banging and going like laterally, but it's actually like a cyclical process.
00:41:40
Audio Recording, Seminar: Jason Camlot
A couple of things that came to mind I — just thinking about the relationship between the sign and sounds so really —and the idea of being able to, in a sense, play something like a skull or something in nature. So basically how the sound reproduction technologies seem to evoke and suggest these new possibilities of turning any sign into sort of sonic content. And this is talked about in an article by Theodore Adorno called "The Curve of the Needle." For him, piano rolls, right, were seen as that source of potential sound [Piano roll music].
00:42:20
Audio Recording, Seminar: Jason Camlot
His way of thinking about it's sound recording and sort of the bumps on a cylinder or a flat disc are still indexical to original things that made sounds that caused the air pressure to record them, but the piano roll in so far as it was generating sound just from punched holes, suggest the possibility of creating sounds out of nothing. Right. In sense, or just out of random — it made me really think of digital processes. And so this link is to Patrick Feaster's work, and he —rather than talk about his work as about sound reproduction, he calls it eduction to reduce this, to bring out elicit, develop from a condition of latent, rudimentary, or merely potential existence. So the repetitious sound of your sound piece, in a way is one of the base necessities for educing something because it has to be moving and cyclical in order to generate a sense of continuous sound or sonic quality. So you can't just have sort of random symbols there has to be some kind of ultimate pattern assigned. Just the concept of sonification in a way is one that it seems could be useful for you to be thinking about in relation to your project.
00:43:31
Stacey Copeland:
What are you hearing in listening back to this piece and the discussion, Jason?
00:43:35
Jason Camlot:
Oh, it's funny. I haven't — the first thing I said when it was done was "talk about repetition". Right. But what I was referring to there actually was a discussion we'd had about Poe's "The Bells" previously, which is a poem that is built on repetition. Right. And as Aubrey points out one of the main things that's repeated is the word "the bells" [Audio Recording: “Big Ben clock tower of Westminster”]. So there are full lines of the poem that are just bells, bells, bells, bells, bells.
00:43:59
Jason Camlot:
So, just to continue with your idea that really starting with what is not an overly respected poem, Poe's piece. It was like a recitation staple it's seen often as not a very deep poem, very surface-y. And that's one of the points that interests Aubrey very much actually. Discovering prosody, literary prosody as a kind of field of technical discourse around the analysis of poetry and then filtering it through some of these other disciplinary fields like media history in particular, that was extremely productive and generative for him. And I think having to engage in this sound piece exercise also expanded his way of thinking. I mean, I don't really know, but I'm not sure that he would have taken his thinking as far as he did, if he hadn't had to go through the process of actually making a sound work himself.
00:44:54
Stacey Copeland:
I do have quite an appreciation for this poem. I think because it was one of the poems that I had to read in high school, very in depth. And I think we took turns reading it aloud in the class, these kinds of things. But at the time, I hadn't really been thinking about the ways in which Poe is really very thoughtful and thinking about the different textures and materials and the different actual soundings of these different bells. As we were listening to this, I had to pull up the poem again, to jog my memory about some of the descriptive language that he's using. And some of the, again, prosody and techniques that we might think about and the ways that he's describing silver bells and golden bells and brazen bells and iron bells. So I think this is really a great poem to go to almost as one of the starter texts you can think about in applying sound studies, concepts, and techniques to poetry and to poetry readings.
00:45:46
Jason Camlot:
I think that's right. And I think what Aubrey and the discussions we had in this seminar did for my thinking about the poem was to move it out of sort of the elocutionary realm, which is where I would normally sort of stay in thinking about this poem, because like I said, it was a recitation manual staple in the 19th century, which means that people would find it in these parlor recitation books that they would do for their own amusement at home. Right. And this was one of the poems that they would readily read. And there were tons of parodies of the poem as well, cause it does lend itself to that. Right. But it was a kind of staple piece for the performance, the demonstration of virtuosity in elocutionary performance and ability to innocence sound the poem and do justice to the various qualities, tonal qualities of the different metals, for example, that you mentioned. How do you do that with your voice? So you could think of it as if it were a song in the 1990s, it would be a great piece for like Celine Dion to perform, right? Because it would really allow her to show off her voice and in all of its virtuosity. But I think moving it into the realm of thinking about it from the pointof view of signification and of media as Aubrey really pursued it, like you say, made this poem a kind of obvious staple for a literature slash sound studies course.
00:47:02
Stacey Copeland:
That's definitely a cover that I would love to hear — Celine Dion doing a song version of Poe's "The Bells." [Audio Clip: Stacey vocal as Celine] But talking about covers that actually brings us perfectly to the final cylinder talk that you've brought for us to listen to today.
00:47:19
Jason Camlot:
This piece was done by Andrew Whiteman. So Andrew, among all the students in the seminar has the most training in sound recording media. He's a professional musician and has been for the last 20 years. And so he didn't attend my workshop on audacity because he really, he knows how to work with digital audio workstations and make sound. But also he's very interested in engaging in doing sound pieces that involve poetry. So he has a whole art practice that's around this. Anyways, he sort of fell upon finally a topic that seemed like it would be a good one to pursue and essentially boils down to the question of the idea of the cover. We talk about cover songs — can we talk about cover poems? Or the idea of the poet's cover as he phrases it. And so, because he was interested in oral poetry, let's say _The Odyssey_— like Homer Homeric bardic poetry. He started thinking about an opening canto of Pound's “Cantos” which is kind of a cover of a short section of the Odyssey, and then pointed him to PennSound's archive, where there are recordings of Pound reading that opening “Canto I”as well as some other poets reading portions of it. And so he had a sort of mini archive that he could work with that brought in his interest in a bardic poetry, sort of oral poetic forms, which are formulaic forms. So we can't think of doing a cover in the same sense because the poem changes every time a bard re-performs it versus the question of someone reading the printed already sort of fixed version of a poem differently, and thinking about that as a kind of cover. And so he focused on Robert Duncan's sort of lecture on Pound in which he performs Canto I.
00:49:06
Stacey Copeland:
Here is Andrew Whiteman with “The Poetic Cover.”
00:49:10
Audio Recording, Andrew Whiteman’s Cylinder Talk:
[Audio Clip: Robert Duncan Lecture on Ezra Pound] Hi. When I went to the library here, I discovered something about this intellectual community. And that is that it's total interest in Mr. Ezra Pound seems to have faded. [Music Begins] [Sound Overlapping with Ezra Pound recites “Canto I” ] My initiation and the counters. How did I come to hear it? Set keel to breakers forth from a godly sea, and/ We set up mast and sail on that swart ship, Bore sheep aboard her, and our bodies also/ Heavy with weeping, [Duncan] I found myself in the prep and a terrifying presence of mighty blue stocking who knew the entire modern scene, which made her vastly superior to the [Pound overlap returns] [inaudible] and in one fell swoop I was initiated to the mysteries of [inaudible] trembling and running [inaudible] Ezra Pound on Telegraph Avenue. Elliott. And found there the 30 cantos, what was then the avant garde. [Enter Filreis interview] A very confused domain of something one might call voice. Which in Pound, one doesn't know whether voice is sort of actual or metaphorical. Especially — [Dunan returns] And I opened the page and then went down with the ship [Pound returns]And then went down to ship [Dunan] I can't bear it. This is too much! For a whole week I went — [Pound] And then went down to the ship, / Set keel to breathers, forth on godly sea, and/ We set up mast and sail on that swart ship/ [Duncan] But what do you do when you read a poem? How do you find the rhythm of a poem that is not written? You go to dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah [Reverb effect] . You find it the way they find it in music — [Pound] cadaverous dead, of brides/ Of youths of the olde who had borne much; [Duncan] Most people can't find it [Pound] Souls stained with recent tears, girls tender/ Men many, mauled with bronze lance heads/ [Duncan] When Pound's recordings were made we each found out something we could not know [bell] when we read in the thirties, the forties and so forth. And that is that Pround intoned. And if you hear the record, you will find he has a contour of, a sort of singing, intoning to the line. "And then went down to the ship/Set keel to breakers, forth on the godly sea [music rises]..." [Pound] Battle spoil, bearing yet dreory arms/ [Overlapping voices] These many crowded about me with shouting/ Men many, mauled with bronze lance heads read [Overlapping voices] [Duncan] Our American trouble with men, many. I mean, we have what we do that word men many. A man is difficult enough when you get that many in there, men, many mauls with bronze lance — and so. So, I don't always find the most elegant reading. [Filreis interview?] [Inaudible] Olga's husband says well, "Sound like you never got out from under the influence of Yates or something like that." And Pound is really hurt [Small voice: He doesn't like that] and leaves the room and take his —and then the next day reads in a completely different fashion. Much more relaxed and much more conversational. And you have the two readings there. [Small voice: He took it to heart!] [Duncan] We can overlap so the thing plays a double role. Now. [Filreis interview] He took it to heart. It's really interesting the first high Yatesian reading, and then the next much more kind of casual and incidentally superior reading. It's a really interesting. [Small voice: That's great, and where did you find this thing ?] She sent them to me. [Small voice: Oh fantastic.] [Overlapping voices] [inaudible] [Small voice: I wonder if other stuff will start to surface.] Well I'm hoping. [Duncan] If you don't find the music you have not found the elegant solution. [End music]
00:53:16
Audio Recording, Seminar: Jason Camlot:
Yeah, Aaron.
00:53:17
Audio Recording, Seminar: Aaron Obedkoff
I find it an incredibly potent and effective way to tackle Pound's enormous influence. I mean, he's kind of like — when it comes to modern contemporary poetry, he's like the wizard of Oz behind the screen, he's just everywhere. And so the way you made him disappear into his progeny, his voice kind of being subsumed under Duncan's and the like, I found it very, very effective.
00:53:39
Jason Camlot:
That was Aaron Obedkoff
00:53:41
Audio Recording, Seminar: Andrew Whiteman:
We always get this image of Pound, Aaron as you're saying, as the wizard of Oz. But in that talk where Olga's husband, who's British, who says, "Oh, well, gee, you really can't get away from Yates can ya?" It's like, Oh my God, the ghosts, like whether you find them this horrible fascist monster or whether you find him — in whatever way, he looms so big. And this is like a little [Pop Sound] it pricks, the bubble in this image of poor Pound going away with his book and then coming back the next day and changing his reading style. But what's interesting is we don't know, like the sound of Pound that we have there where he's like, this [Imitates Pounds dramatic style] is that him toned down? Like, there's a whole question there. Was even worse before? Like was even more before? We don't know.
00:54:28
Audio Recording, Seminar: Jason Camlot:
We're really interested in the way you used space panning and also accelerating to differentiate between — sort of continuing Aaron's observation about where Pound's voice was in the mix of his "after-Pound era." The way where you were using it as a way to actually make your arguments. If you, if you want to talk a little bit about like, whether there was much intentionality or whether you were just going with what sounded good, but I also liked the way you took the Filreis conversation, the talk, which is like one contemporary manifestation of continuing to engage with these recordings, the effect of speeding it up, almost highlighted it's gossipy nature, or sort of relegated it to a less important discursive register that actually accelerating suggests belittling or something like that.
00:55:16
Audio Recording, Seminar: Andrew Whiteman:
Yeah. I think you're Dr. Freud-ing me really well now because — and also trying to make them talk to each other that's probably the big thing. I like trying to make different eras to talk to one another where they don't belong. And so where Duncan says "I was in the Augustine presence of lady blue stocking", like whoever that is! Someone who initiated him, he uses the word initiate three times, which I put in there because he places himself in vis-a-vis Pound in a religious place. And so when he says "the Augustine presence of lady blue stocking" I have Pounds "Aphrodite. Golden girdle." Or whatever, to just try and emphasize Duncan's position as an initiate. And then that is what my paper's about. How Duncan says the exact same words that Pound says, but his cover of “Canto I” is completely different and signifies in a completely different way.
00:56:18
Stacey Copeland:
This one has — it's just so rich. It really is more of a soundscape composition. And this really does show the range that your students brought to the table when they were thinking about the idea of a cylinder talk, where here we have Andrew's cylinder talk that doesn't have his voice in it at all. It's really engaging with the archive and engaging with these ideas of covers, and covers almost as layers of sound layers on top of each other through time through space, through these different contexts that he's grappling with in these different poetic covers. Tell me a bit about listening back. What's coming forward for you?
00:56:57
Jason Camlot:
Yeah. I've been thinking more like, as you were just saying about what a cover is. Cause I think one of the things that his cylinder talk does so successfully is exactly what he said he was going for, which is communicate the ways in which the same sort of text can not only sound differently, but also through that sound represent an entirely different worldview, literally worldview. So ideology in relation to the world, but also sort of literary worldview, meaning what literature and what talking about literature and what performing literature is supposed to be accomplishing. He layers them for us to sort of understand that we can only partially see or know the meaning of what a sounding of a poem would mean in a particular historical context. That's one of the things that I hear in this piece.
00:57:44
Stacey Copeland:
Yeah. I mean, every time I listened to this, I feel like I'm hearing something else and it could just be me projecting, but I feel like we are experiencing a bit of Andrew's personal experience of grappling with these archival sounds. We get the sort of disorientation and listening to the harsh panning back and forth in the first half of the cylinder talk there. And then we also have this comedic moment with the speeding up of the voices, which again could be, I mean, for me evokes the feeling of the monotony and maybe the hilarity that ensues after listening to hours and hours and hours of archival tape in real time. Right. Because its sound. You have to listen and you have to digitize in real time and it can make you a bit loopy.
00:58:28
Jason Camlot:
Yeah, I think that's what he was referring to when he said I was Dr. Freud-ing him, like, I think he was sort of the point he was making is that he —you can hear his own himself in the positioning that he gives to the sounds in the piece, but he's also positioning them in relation to how he feels about what he's doing right now.
00:58:45
Stacey Copeland:
Inviting students to engage in audio production — one of my hopes and what I think sound does really well is opening up the doors to allow students to grapple with and experience and describe and share their own embodied experience of engaging with these ideas outside of the very traditional essay writing format that we get engrained with in high school and then carries forward into their undergrads and haunts us later in our academic careers as well.
00:59:14
Jason Camlot:
That's really true. And I think we've heard some of that through the various comments in response to all of the cylinder talks that we listened to. It's somewhat different from the formulae of knowledge production that they're used to engaging in. And so I think that's very quickly associated with putting themselves out there a little bit more, right. That there's more of themselves in the decisions they're making, because the decisions haven't been sort of pre-made for them as to what an essay is supposed to be or what this kind of knowledge production is supposed to have in it. And then also as you point out that it is a very embodied experience because it involves listening. It involves bodily fatigue because that work can really take a long time when you're sitting at the computer doing the sound editing.
00:59:57
Jason Camlot:
And then it makes me think also about the relevance of calling this a cylinder talk assignment rather than a podcasting assignment, because no one knows what a cylinder talk is. Right. It's sort of a made up idea as a constraint. And I add some—and we did have discussions like say, well, what is a cylinder talk? So that they knew what they could sort of engage in. But people have ideas about what a podcast is already. So in some ways a podcasting assignment would allow them to lean a little bit more on models than an assignment where they have to do a cylinder talk where there aren't really aren't any precedents for this. In retrospect, I think that was a productive aspect of the assignment was that there wasn't even a kind of sonic generic precedent that they could rely upon.
01:00:40
Stacey Copeland:
Yeah. Thinking about the cylinder as a —.
01:00:44
Jason Camlot:
Yeah.
01:00:44
Stacey Copeland:
– a very simple constraint that has a very material aspect to it as well. Versus I think if we thought about podcasting more in that way, we might start to create some more interesting things.
01:00:57
Jason Camlot:
Yeah. Yeah. Possibly.
01:00:57
Stacey Copeland:
I was curious listening through some of the cylinder talks that your students made, how you see this kind of assignment being applied to other courses that you teach, or maybe in the future, other disciplines as well.
01:01:10
Jason Camlot:
I guess it all starts with an exercise in the use of constraints, to generate really interesting creative solutions. The cylinder talk, it's a cipher or an empty container in a lot of ways. And yet a very restrictive constraint simultaneously, right.The idea of having assignments of constraint and maybe of unfamiliar constraint could be extremely productive across the disciplines. I mean, this seminar was really about engaging with theories of listening from many different disciplines and then thinking about our own discipline from the respective of those readings. But I think the sound assignment was getting at that question [Start Music: Ambient Sounds] and problem and goal in a different way, in a much more practice and sort of embodied way.
01:01:56
Stacey Copeland:
Yeah. Thinking about the different ways that we can approach our pedagogy. What other assignments can we bring in to kind of shake students awake a little bit? So I guess at this point now it's my turn to go and listen back through the that we just had.
01:02:20
Jason Camlot:
Sorry, we talked too much!
01:02:24
Stacey Copeland:
Yeah. Maybe we should put out an extended cut.
01:02:27
Jason Camlot:
Yeah, exactly.
01:02:28
Stacey Copeland:
This has been a pleasure listening to some of the work that your students put out because this is one of the frustrations always is both as a student and as an instructor, students create these wonderful works and only everyone in the course gets to hear it. And no one else. I'm glad we got to share some of these out in the world for others to enjoy as well. [End Music: Ambient Sounds]
01:03:05
Hannah McGregor:
[SpokenWeb Podcast Theme Music] SpokenWeb is a monthly podcast produced by the SpokenWeb team as part of distributing the audio collected from and created using Canadian literary archival recordings found at universities across Canada. Our producers this month are SpokenWeb team members Stacey Copeland of Simon Fraser University and Jason Camlot of Concordia University. Our podcast project manager and supervising producer is Stacey Copeland and our assistant producer and outreach manager is Judee Burr. A special thanks to Alexandra Sweeney, Aubrey Grant, Sara Adams, Andrew Whiteman, and all the students of English 604: Literary Listening as Cultural Technique for their cylinder talks and discursive contributions to this episode. To find out more about SpokenWeb visit spokenweb.ca and subscribe to the SpokenWeb Podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you may listen If you love us, let us know. Rate us and leave a comment on Apple podcasts or say hi on our social media @SpokenWebCanada. From all of us at SpokenWeb, be kind to yourselves and one another out there. And we'll see you back here next month for another episode of the SpokenWeb Podcast: stories about how literature sounds.